When was the last time I spoke to a star? series "Pluribus"« Karolina Wydra, who was just returning to Hollywood after a multi-year hiatus due to having children during the pandemic—a personal decision that led to her agents terminating her contract. Now, her role as Zosia, a hive mind emissary sent to coax Carol (Rhea Seehorn) into joining the world's shared consciousness in Vince Gilligan's Apple TV sci-fi series about the "happy apocalypse," has sparked talk of an Emmy nomination. Below, the Polish-American actress discusses the meticulous development of Zosia's character and how well she would fit into the "uncanny valley" of the Others.
You've worked with many greats—like David Lynch and Graham Yost—but you've called working with Vince "a dream." What is it about his work or approach that you particularly admire, and why has he become your ultimate dream?
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I've been a fan of his for a long time, and I think he's an incredible storyteller; the journey he takes you on is always unexpected... When we work on his work, we don't improvise or add anything because it's already so great and so rich. After working with him and reading the scripts, it's really challenging; it can be quite challenging because of how his writing affects you.
There's a visual storytelling element to his approach to constructing scenes—even in the presentation of my character, the way he wanted the cameras to be further away because she's already far away, and not be too intrusive. He's very meticulous in his storytelling, and it's so wonderful to be a part of that. I was lucky enough to watch him on set one day. I had headphones. I was doing a voiceover for a phone conversation with Rhea in Episode 2, and just listening to him dance with camera operator A to tell the story and explain why he's going to frame the shot the way he does is really captivating and inspiring. He's his own person.
Besides, he's also a wonderful person. He's so kind, humble, sweet, a real gentleman, he's truly caring and considerate. I'm a big fan of his. It really touches me when I meet someone who is both a wonderful artist and a wonderful person. I think that's the most attractive thing in the world.
Absolutely, and this helps create such a favorable and safe environment for cooperation.
For an actor, this can be a very vulnerable process. And when there's someone nearby who makes you feel seen and safe, you think, "I want to give you everything and more." And what could be better than that?
Last time we spoke, you mentioned that you stepped away from acting to have children, and that your representatives decided to take a different path. But now you're participating in the Emmy nominations discussion. How do you feel about that? How are you coping?
Come on, what?! I want to say, «What’s wrong with you people?» [Laughs] I’m like, «Vince, of course. Rhea, well, it’s obvious.» It’s incredible, and also, I feel honored that my performance touches people or makes them interesting enough to have these conversations. Natalie, everything that’s happening has exceeded my wildest dreams.
I want all the credit to go to Vince Gilligan. His contribution to—or maybe to humanity?—sounds so grand, but what he creates gives people the opportunity to think for themselves and have their own experience watching his show. They can truly process what they're seeing; they have to be there, they have to process it. It gets into their brains and stays there. We finished filming a year and a half ago, and I still think about all the nuances, the constant ideas that come up. We need original shows like this that make us think, that don't force every little thing on us, but allow us to come up with our own interpretations.
As for Rhea, what she brought to this character and her performance was simply amazing. It's a masterpiece of acting. And for me, the opportunity to work with her and learn from her is the greatest gift.
I love acting so much. I remember when I was starting out, taking all these different classes. I'd sit for hours with friends in New York, smoking cigarettes—when I still smoked—drinking coffee, and talking about acting. "All these different techniques," [mime smokes], "and my God—Al Pacino or Anna Magnani." It was so exciting, but so wonderful.
That's a pretty long answer to what you said, and I'm probably trying to avoid it a little bit, too. I'm truly overwhelmed and incredibly grateful. And I feel humbled by it. I didn't expect that. I'm grateful that my performance sparked the vision that Vince had—that's my greatest joy.
Speaking of acting techniques, you engaged in mindfulness practices to better understand Zosya and how detached she can be from emotions. Did this role teach you anything about yourself?
As a mother, I was able to give Zosia unconditional love and a true, intuitive understanding of what it means to love something, someone, so unconditionally. And that was a wonderful gift for me, and being able to share that with Zosia—just like she does for Carol, loving her so deeply and sincerely. I also do dream work, delving into the subconscious and navigating its waters, and it was wonderful.
I was recently having a conversation about how characters come to you as gifts, and Zosia was a gift in the sense that she forced me to stop, think, and not react impulsively. She creates space, she's there for Carol, and she's able to absorb all of her emotions and not give in to them. But there were also challenging moments for me physically, because it went against my natural instincts as an actor, as a person. Because if you started yelling at me, I'd be like, "Ah!" I'd, like, grab my head or run away.
Others have memories of all this, but [this emotion] doesn't live in their body. They have this contentment, bliss, and happiness. They are unperturbed, but at the same time they are beings of love. Everything is very carefully thought out: every movement, every physical behavior, even the way I stand. When I started working on it, I began placing my hands in front of me. Sometimes, because I slouch, [Vince] says, "Straighten your back," so I become more welcoming and pleasant. There is no threat, so [thinking about] the physical aspect that is associated with it.
They're very professional lawyers. In their minds, they're the best lawyer in the world. I speak very accurately. The words I use, the nuances of each word I choose to tell the story, right up until episode 8, where I start using a looser vocabulary. I say "yes" instead of "yes." Everything is done for a reason.
There are moments where Carol is genuinely suffering, and there's an instinctive urge to empathize, but as you mentioned, there has to be a certain distance. When the camera wasn't rolling, were you and Rhea supportive of each other as co-stars, or did you live in that space?
When the camera wasn't rolling, we were constantly joking around, and it was great. We were just having a great time.
We had to have a donut every day. I'd never eaten donuts before, but she'd always have half a donut, and then I'd jump on her and eat the whole donut, or we'd split the donut in half.
Which one exactly? That is the main question.
She prefers very simple dishes. She doesn't like anything with cream in it.
And neither do I.
Oh, yeah, you should talk to her about that. But she hates anything with anything else in it. And I don't; I'm all for it. I would try different ones, but it was the daily experience of eating donuts. And I've never eaten so many donuts in my life, and oddly enough, I haven't eaten a donut since.
Well, the second season is coming soon.
Yes, that's right. I'm going back on my donut diet.
And here's my perfect segue: have you read anything? I know you didn't want to know what Zosya's past was like, but maybe we can learn more about her?
I'd like to say, "Natalie, I'll tell you this." But I don't know anything.
They're starting a new season, and that's the beauty of it: Vince takes his time. The end result shows how carefully he's worked out the details to tell exactly the story he wants, and he doesn't want to rush it just to get it out there.
I was at PaleyFest the other day with [writer/director/executive producer] Gordon Smith and [writer/co-executive producer] Jean Carroll. I said [husky voice], «Guys, anything? Anything? Any nuggets of information? Any ideas?» And they said, «Sorry, honey, no.».
But I'm thrilled. I'm really looking forward to the reunion because I can't wait to meet the whole cast. It's like when you have a favorite author who's releasing their next book, and you just can't wait. I'm curious where Zosia is from. Maybe I'll ask him, maybe not. I'm curious how this story ends.
And I'm looking forward to going back to New Mexico; I love it there. Have you been there?
Not really, but my friends recently visited Santa Fe and really enjoyed it, so it's on my list.
Yes, you have to go through this.
A visit to the set? I'm just offering my services.
Let's do this; let's publish this.
Of course, I bring that to life. You mentioned several takes, different interpretations of the script. As a result, did you have a specific image of Zosia in your head, or does it constantly change depending on the scene or Carol's mood?
Exactly. You've hit the nail on the head. When it comes to scenes, everything is always dictated by Carol and the story we need to tell to give Carol what she needs to agree to join us. So anything—I don't want to say tactics—is necessary to achieve that. Everything is constantly shifting, evolving, changing.
Zosia acts differently when she's with Carlos [Manuel Vesga, who plays Manusos]. She acts differently when she's with Samba [Schutte, who plays Mr. Diabaté]; everyone else changes too, depending on who they're with. When they're with the Others, they're connected to the hive mind and the collective, so they act completely differently. And you see these changes.
We all had different interpretations of the events in [Episode 8]. Questions: Is Zosia really falling in love with her for real? Is it all just an act? Or is it because she has all of Helen's memories? It's so wonderful to discover all these things and go through this journey.
I was very surprised by the lack of personal space among the "Others." There's no real individuality, but there's also no shame or insecurity, like when they sleep in the same gym.
For example, in the second episode, when I undress, they're not embarrassed by their bodies. There's no awkwardness. My body is a vessel. My connection to this world is completely different. We don't fear death; every memory, every thought is downloaded, so we live forever, but our physical form is just a vessel. We don't value it that much. There's no jewelry, so there's no monetary value—though that would be difficult for me, I love my jewelry.
But it was a conversation. The simplicity of their clothes is a transition. That's why I wear the clothes I wear, so Carol can recreate Helen's wardrobe a little bit, as well as the image she created, so she feels familiar, safe, understood. That's why they chose me to match her.
Ultimately, the clothes become like this: everyone's wearing whatever, there's no connection to it. So we just grab whatever clothes we have and put them on. There's a detachment from everything that our egos are attached to, and that was really indicative to me of how I wouldn't survive in this world. That scene: there were so many people, so many extras, and everyone did such a wonderful job. It was really beautiful to watch, but I thought: it would be really hard for me when you're just like sardines in a barrel, sleeping next to each other. But there was something beautiful about that efficiency, the fact that they cared so much about this planet that they had no connection to housing, to the size of houses. Rhea and I were just talking about how we wouldn't survive.
It's incredibly tempting. I can understand, especially those moments when it seems there's no war, no famine.
There are no prejudices here. Everyone is tolerant of each other. There is unconditional love and understanding; there is peace. People truly care about this planet. And people live by their own code: we will do anything to preserve it. And yet we say, «No, my life is important to me, and I will destroy anything that gets in my way to preserve what I need.» And look at what’s happening in the world we live in; it’s truly, truly terrible.
Rhea and I were talking about how you don't want to be surprised again, you don't want to see a play for the first time, you don't want to read a book for the first time. Someone tells you a great joke, and you think, "Oh my God, that's so funny." And you start laughing so hard, you realize, "That was the funniest thing.".
The absence of this would be a disaster… There are things that would become much less significant if people were not attached to anything, which is simply incredible.
This interview has been edited and condensed for brevity and clarity.
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